19:56:38 [mikado] Hello to everyone! We are newbies to this forum, although we have been following up on it since its beginning. We are really glad Glen started it.
19:57:00 [LH] hi ralf/Inge
19:57:05 [Gregg/Fig8] hello Mikado, welcome.. yes this is a great board
19:57:06 [Skippy] Hello Mikado!
19:57:06 [LH] dana here
19:57:13 [Hovertime] Glen is THE MAN!
19:57:15 [mikado] I should explain: We that is Ralf and Inge, who run the Mikado Company.
19:57:22 [glen] Welcome!
19:57:46 [jordanp] I'm having a hard time loosening my tail pinion mesh.... any tips?
19:57:54 [Hovertime] Nice to see you guys here!
19:58:32 [mikado] jordanp> Which LOGO? 10? 20?
19:58:56 [jordanp] Logo 10
19:59:22 [glen] I tried not to invite the whole world this time - just the 95 on this forum 
20:01:20 [mikado] Sorry, some techincal trouble. We are back. To jodanp: what are you doing when you are trying to loosen the tail pinion mesh. Possibly we already have a language problem. Can you use a paraphrase or explain?
20:01:43 [Skippy] mikado> Any word on when your 500mm Glass blades will be available again?
20:02:20 [glen] loosen the 4 screws in the frame plus the tail boom clamp on the tail, and pull...
20:02:39 [Gregg/Fig8] mikado> Welcome and thank you for comming, And I wanted to thank you for all of your hard work on making such a great product! what did you put into the Mikado product line that makes it so addictive?
20:02:44 [mikado] Skippy> We are working on it. Not easy to find sources. But we are getting closer.
20:02:57 [jordanp] yeah, I tried that, but it ends up about the same as it was originaly
20:03:11 [glen] er tail boom vlamp on the boom suppoet - sorry
20:03:16 [Skippy] What blades do you recomend in the meantime?
20:03:37 [LH] The more I fly, the more I appreciate the finesse of the Logo's designs, especiall after fighting with my "other" machine ..
20:03:47 [jordanp] I have an idea, I will be right back
20:04:34 [mikado] Skippy> Either MS Composit 515mm or any other blades between 500 and 515 mm, e.g. Funky
20:05:14 [glen] my wife's keyboard sticks - that's today's excuse for my "typo-ing"
20:05:18 [jaggies] hi guys!
20:05:22 [LH] I think the 515's are just sweet on the Logo 10
20:05:33 [Gregg/Fig8] hey Jim!
20:05:41 [glen] jaggies> HI Jim!
20:06:26 [Skippy] LH> I just got a set of the MAH 500's they seem to be very nice as well
20:07:21 [Hovertime] Mikado-please advice on one way bearing lubrication.
20:07:23 [mikado] Yes - MAH blades are good too. Just a bit on the expensive side over here in Europe.
20:08:01 [Skippy] mikado> They are very reasonably priced here in Canada
20:08:34 [glen] I have a question - someone has had a link fly off an and now some are discussing installing the ball-links backwards.. Is there a problem with this?
20:09:24 [mikado] Hovertime> You know, our pilots never lubricate the bearings. If you fly a lot and hard you should replace the main bearings after a while though. Make a check before the flying season (if you live where there are seasons)
20:09:34 [jaggies] my computer just said hello to me. Was that from one of you guys? 
20:09:39 [Hovertime] Letters on the links fasing heli
20:10:20 [glen] There is a "new login" greeting "hello" that sometimes works
20:10:34 [Skippy] mikado> Will you be making an upgrade for the Flybar Control bridge that uses steel balls?
20:11:29 [lyle] Hi people, and welcome Ralf
20:11:55 [jordanp] jaggies> Hey jim
20:12:03 [mikado] Skippy> Yes we will make a new bridge with steel balls and a washer so that the ball link cannot become lose
20:12:20 [jordanp] jaggies> the ESC cut off on me again this morning 
20:12:23 [Skippy] mikado> That sounds great!
20:12:28 [jaggies] Can't wait to order one, Ralf
20:12:29 [mikado] Skippy> Time frame: about 8 weeks
20:12:44 [Hovertime] mikado-very nice!
20:12:57 [glen] mikado> yippeeeee!
20:13:23 [Skippy] mikado> How is the Bionic coming along?
20:14:36 [lyle] I'm going to my official color.
20:15:14 [glen] Hi Lyle
20:15:36 [lyle]>[glen] Howdy.
20:15:58 [Alan] glen> Just sorted my govenor mode....at last
20:16:07 [jaggies] bummer jordan, do you know why? 12 cell or 14 cell?
20:16:22 [LH] Is there a tail holder issue .. there are several that have had the bolt break at the junction of the aluminum holder.. They appear to have stress cracked at the thread line. Most were running high rpm, and the failure occured in doing things like fast 540's..
20:16:48 [jordanp] jaggies> doesn't seem to matter which pack I use
20:17:05 [jordanp] jaggies> it cut off right as I took off
20:17:06 [jmogl] mikado> I am planning on buying a new Logo 10, upgrading from a voyager. I can fly acro in the simulator, and I want to do it on the real thing! What upgrades do you recommend?
20:17:07 [jaggies] jordan> is the t/r belt tight?
20:17:08 [mikado] I guess this is our chance to talk on the ESD problem. It is clear that only some people have problems, but for those who do we will soon offer a solution for constantly discharging the belt (during flight). So, if indeed in some helis the belt causes ESD, this simply cannot be cause by the belt.
20:17:56 [lyle] Do you or does anyone make an aluminium main gear? I've stripped about a dozen of them.mikado>
20:17:59 [glen] alan, great! How do you like governor mode?
20:18:18 [mikado] Clarification: When the constant discharging device is installed and the controller goes, it cannot be caused by the belt, but must have other reasons.
20:18:34 [Alan] glen> don't know yet, too windy , but on the bench it starts smooth
20:18:47 [Skippy] mikado> is this device a wiper of some kind?
20:19:42 [Alan] mikado> I just used a silicon based spray, sorted the problem
20:19:43 [mikado] No aluminum main gear - too much wear, and not economical.
20:19:43 [jaggies] mikado> Speaking of the belt, some of us have had belts break in flight. Is that because the belt is too loose or too tight? Or could it be the number of flights (>100 seems to be the trend). Thanks
20:19:53 [mikado] Yes a sort of wiper
20:20:26 [Gregg/Fig8] mikado> I just switched to a shulze 18.46k from a pheonix 45 esc, and I am running into what I think is a ESD problem, tail glitching only happens with the 18.46k. does a loose belt cause ESD?
20:20:46 [mikado] Silicon spray may be the reason for belts ripping. They change the consistency. By the way we are switching from 3mm belt to 4 mm belt.
20:22:01 [LH] Gregg/Fig8> a loose belt causes tail glitching..
20:22:13 [mikado] To jaggies: Do you check belt tension regularly?
20:22:17 [jaggies] mikado> any other reason? I don't know how many use silicon spray. I just got a 4mm belt
20:22:21 [glen] Lyle, of the dozen stripped gears, how many were in crashes? Do you have a sudden startup? strange....
20:22:35 [jaggies] mikado>yes, about every 10 flights or so.
20:23:10 [LH] too much backlash?jaggies>
20:23:53 [lyle] Most werer crashes with the only damage was a stripped gear. A couple of gears stripped on 'soft' starts.
20:23:57 [mikado] In our experience the Schulze 18.46 is the most reliable, and does not cause ESD. Tail glitching can have many different causes. Quality of reciever or gyro, placement of wires...
20:25:11 [jordanp] Got the main gear mesh problem sorted out. Loosened the tail boom and stuck a folded up piecea of paper in between the tail pinion and the main gear. I then re-tightened. gear mesh is quite good now.
20:26:01 [glen] Lyle, when the blades stop suddenly and the motor keeps going, this is the weak link, and maybe a good thing
20:26:25 [Hovertime] Mikado-any advice on autorotation hub #2731 lubrication?
20:26:31 [mikado] jordanp> For adjusting gear mesh it is not advisable to use a piece of paper. That' will make your gear mesh too much.
20:26:50 [Hovertime] Lyle-maybe your gears are too loose? not interconecting fully?
20:26:51 [lyle] glen> Me thinks maybe too much of a good thing
20:26:52 [mikado] jordanp> Or too large. Don't know the proper word in Enlish. (Sorry.)
20:26:54 [glen] Lyle, I'll be intereste in watching your heli startup next month...
20:27:32 [mikado] Hovertime> Yes. Lubricate it when you build the heli. Then maybe once a season.
20:27:46 [glen] mikado> Your english is better than the average North American
20:27:53 [Skippy] mikado> By to muchd you mean to loose with the piece of paper?
20:28:12 [Hovertime] Mikado-what lubricant do you recommend?
20:28:27 [glen] hehe, Lyle
20:28:45 [lyle] I'v bee accused of having a screw loose, but never of loose gears.Hovertime>
20:29:20 [Hovertime] Lyle-LOL.
20:29:21 [mikado] Yes too loose with the piece of paper. Exactly. Just stick the two gears together (gently) until it stops. Then tighten the screws.
20:30:14 [Gregg/Fig8] mikado> There was a question about the oneway bearing and how many washers to use. My manual shows 2 washers on top and one on the bottom, is this recommended? I ask because I only have 2 washers, and use them one on the top and one on the bottom?
20:30:17 [mikado] Ralf uses the regular grease from the Exxon station. He buys it by the kilo. It lasts for half a decade (with about 5 helis)
20:30:26 [jaggies] mikado> BTW, I'm sure you get this a lot, but my Logo helis are my favorite ones in my fleet. Have you considered making a glow heli?
20:31:02 [Hovertime] Jaggies-?!?
20:31:13 [lyle] glen> I'll let you fly ChopChop AND BigChop if you'll let me copy ypour TX setup.
20:31:25 [mikado] Gregg/Fig8> Which heli do you fly? LOGO 10 or 20?
20:31:41 [Gregg/Fig8] mikado> logo 10
20:33:02 [mikado] The washers have the following functions: The top washer prevents the main gear from touching the mainframe. The bottom washer protects the auto hub against the clip on the main shaft.
20:34:31 [mikado] To jaggies: We'll make a glow helis when we run out of ideas for electro-heils. That won't be until in a while.
20:34:48 [Gregg/Fig8] haha
20:35:08 [Skippy] mikado> There has been some talk on the forums about the circlip on the Logo 10 autobearing making people a little nervous as that is the only thing supporting the Heli. Do you have anything in the works for that?
20:35:18 [Alan] mikado> what do you think of the new battery technology that's emerging
20:36:51 [mikado] Skippy> We know this looks like it's not okay. But it is. For those who do worry, they can get the clamp ring #2385. But be sure, nothing bad ever happened with regard to that.
20:37:38 [Skippy] mikado> Clamp ring thats a good Idea thanks!
20:38:16 [pwkpete] I have a bolt that runs throught the main below the clamp, is that not in new main masts or new kits?
20:38:40 [mikado] To Alan: We have been following up on the arrival of LiPoly batteries in the US. We have not been able to get our hands on them, but we know people who have. As soon as we get a pair, we'll go testflying for LOGO 10.
20:38:52 [Skippy] pwkpete> it is changed to a circlip when you install the auto bearing
20:39:00 [LH] mikado> Is one idea a micro at the other end of the scale?
20:39:36 [mikado] To pwkpete: You have the tuning version (hardened shaft).
20:39:37 [Hovertime] Mikado-any plans of making place for ESC a little further from motor, and at angle instead of parralel to the motor?
20:39:42 [pwkpete] Yep, I have the auto hub, the 'jesus' bolt still fits under it.
20:40:02 [pwkpete] Ahhh
20:40:10 [mikado] To pwkpete: The tuning shaft includes the bolt you were mentioning.
20:40:51 [Alan] mikado> I used the bolt, didn't think NOT to!
20:41:07 [mikado] Hovertime> Why do you think that would be good?
20:42:16 [Skippy] Alan> do you use a washer above the bolt? and does it ride snug on the bottom of the beariing?
20:42:38 [mikado] LH> Each year we present our new product at the international Toy Fair in Nuremberg. That takes place end of January/beginning of February. We hate to make you wait, but...
20:42:56 [Gregg/Fig8] glen> 12 people! holding up good
20:43:20 [LH] mikado>
20:43:48 [pwkpete] mikado> ... but... but what???
20:44:00 [jaggies] mikado> I noticed that the B50-11L isn't a prefered motor option, though some people fly with it. In fact nothing hotter than the 14L is listed. Can you please comment?
20:44:27 [Gregg/Fig8] mikado> do you have any estimates of how many Logo machines are flying today?
20:44:30 [jaggies] mikado> this is refering to the motorization page on your web site...
20:45:04 [pwkpete] I have to ask, I may have missed it, was a release date named for the 24?
20:45:17 [glen] Gregg/Fig8> Yup, we had 13 at one point
20:45:18 [Hovertime] Mikado-i am not sure if aluminum motor case protects ESC from electromagnetic field.+ if it would 5 cm further from motor, and at 45 degree angle-we could use shorter wires
20:45:52 [LH] mikado> I've used the LiPoly's now for about 4 months on one of my Micro's, and they are very picky to look after. Flight times are in the 20 minute range, so the pain is sort of worth it, on a small scale. I'm not sure I'd like to trash a pack for the Logo, tho, so the technology is not perfect !
20:46:53 [mikado] to jaggies: We know this motor is preferred for instance by Gary Wright. Sure it is great to fly with such high rpm, if you have absolute rotor head control. But the entire set-up will become very hot, the flight time is relatively short.
20:47:55 [mikado] To jaggies: So with this B50-11L motor, it is easy to run into problems, because it does not like to be run outside its optimum rpm. Gary Wright of course does not have this problem.
20:48:05 [Skippy] mikado> The new C50 motors look to be a very nice fit for the Logo 10's
20:49:36 [mikado] To pwkpete: LOGO 24 will be issued here in Germany around May. Give it a few more weeks until we have translated the manual and shipped to the US. LOGO 24 will be available with the new Bionic canopy or with the standard LOGO 20 canopy.
20:49:42 [Skippy] mikado> Blades are a very important key to this set up(11L).. I ran this motor for a while and tried quite a few sets of blades but nothing that was "just right"
20:50:23 [Hovertime] Speeking o fast motors-have you done safety tests to determine "never exceed RPM"? What is the max safe RPM for logo10?
20:51:31 [mikado] Skippy> The C50 is a super motor by Hacker Brushless.
20:52:21 [mikado] Skippy> You are right (about the blades). Over here we fly the B50-14L with 12 to 13 cells and 1550 rpm.
20:52:33 [jaggies] mikado> Some of us notice white powder around the main gear of the Logo 20 after a number of flights, but not the Logo 10. Is this normal for the Logo 20? Or is it the sign of another problem (poor meshing, wrong pinion, etc.)?
20:53:19 [jaggies] mikado> to be clear, the white powder is from the main gear.
20:54:25 [mikado] To jaggies: What you describe happens with the 8-t or 9-t pinion used in the LOGO 20 and the 96-t main gear. We have just made a new main gear for LOGO 20 which has 138 teeth and finer pitch. So if you were using a 9-t motor pinion, with the new gear you would switch to a 13-t motor pinion.
20:54:34 [mikado] The new main gear is also much quiter.
20:54:52 [mikado] And it is 10mm thick instead of 8mm.#
20:55:17 [jaggies] awesome. I'll be ordering that too
20:56:03 [lyle] Is the 138 tooth gear the same size as the 200 tooth on the L10?mikado>
20:56:13 [glen] mikado> ah, some were concerned about the finer teeth being fragile - thicker gear will compensate...
20:56:21 [mikado] The 138-t main gear is standard for LOGO 16/20/24.
20:57:28 [pwkpete] The 16 doesn't seem to be common here, are you discontinuing it?
20:57:47 [jordanp] jaggies> Just did a quick flight, stayed low. ESC didn't give me any problems.
20:57:57 [jordanp] jaggies> Looks like a great day to fly eh?
20:58:24 [Alan] WEather has been BAD in Manchester UK today
20:59:02 [Hovertime] Mikado- Speeking o fast motors-have you done safety tests to determine "never exceed RPM"? What is the max safe RPM for logo10?
20:59:10 [jaggies] mikado> Some of us have noticed a loud "mechanical whine" associated with some hacker motors that is not characteristic of normal flight sounds. Can you take a listen and give us your thoughts of what it might be: http://wirealm.net/logo/LogoWhine.mpg
20:59:33 [mikado] Lyle, the 138-t main gear is slightly smaller in diameter than the 200-t gear for LOGO 10.
21:00:03 [jaggies] the file is about 2MB hope that's not too much
21:00:10 [Gregg/Fig8] ah its either coming from the motor, or the clamp. I switched out to the tuning clamp, and it has seemed to go away
21:02:01 [pwkpete] mikado> We had some problems getting L10 flybars over here for a while. I've been using longer ones from a glow, have you done any testing with different sizes?
21:02:19 [jordanp] jaggies> I have the clamp installed too. You can listen in today during flight.
21:03:11 [mikado] Hovertime> We reason that one doesn't fly an electric heli much beyond 1600 rpm. The durabilty of the heli lasts much beyond that though.
21:04:31 [mikado] to jaggies: Which motor? Which pinion?
21:05:41 [LH] mikado> ahh.. 1600 ..that would explain the tail blade bolt failure. The failures happend for folks that regularly were running 2000 rpm..
21:05:54 [jaggies] mikado> B50-13L, 15T pinion. It happens around 1600 RPM.
21:05:57 [mikado] To pwkpete: With the light paddles no. 2359 use the 300mm flybar for maximum cyclic response. For best cyclic response with the stock paddles use 360mm.
21:05:58 [LH] over many flights..
21:06:01 [glen] that sound file is also at logoheli.com/Downloads/LogoWhine.mpg FWIW
21:06:59 [mikado] To jaggies: I would fly a 13-t or 14-t pinion with that. How many cells? 12?
21:07:35 [jaggies] mikado> yes, 12 cells. 1750RPM
21:08:40 [mikado] LH> On tail blade bolt failure: If you ever had a slight touch of the tail on the ground, these screws may be slightly damaged. And then if you do 2000 rpm, there is a risk.
21:09:30 [jaggies] jodan> yep, great day to go fly some Logos.
21:10:04 [Hovertime] Mikado-could you look at my answer about esc mount- i can not see it and copy-paste myself..
21:10:15 [mikado] Guys, let us announce that we finally made a new tail pitch bridge. It has two joints (similar to how it is done in the Raptor).
21:10:16 [pwkpete] mikado> Re: paddles, interesting, I would have expected the opposite due to gyro effect, more weight closer in, and less weight farther out would be comparable...
21:10:43 [Skippy] mikado> Thankyou!!!!!
21:11:08 [Gregg/Fig8] excellent! I like that bridge very much!
21:11:20 [glen] mikado> hehehe, just when folks were starting to run out and by Craptor parts
21:11:37 [Skippy] mikado> when will this be available?
21:11:42 [glen] er,,, Raptor
21:11:47 [LH] mikado> Yes!!!
21:12:21 [LH] pwkpete> it's all here.. http://www.rcaircraft.info/ColinMill91011.htm
21:12:24 [lyle] mikado> finally made a new tail pitch bridge. Do you have a part number?
21:13:16 [mikado] Hovertime> We are working under the assumption that the motors themselves do not cause ESD. Irrespective, you should keep the wires short. Maybe we did not fully grasp your idea.
21:13:17 [glen] The LOGO 20 flybar gives excellent cyclic response on the "10", but the 3-D paddles saves 20 grams or so
21:13:50 [Gregg/Fig8] Unfortunatly I need to leave.. Once again I wanted to say thank you Mikado people for such a great product! I am hopelessly addicted.
21:13:57 [mikado] lyle> part no. 3030
21:14:27 [glen] Gregg/Fig8> CYA Gregg!
21:14:38 [jaggies] cya gregg!
21:14:41 [LH] ciao gregg
21:14:52 [mikado] Bye Gregg!
21:15:14 [mikado] See you all again next time?
21:15:25 [Skippy] glen> what do you think is better the 360mm or the light paddles on the 300?
21:15:50 [mikado] glen> Use the 300 mm.
21:15:51 [LH] so long.. I've got to run also.. thanks again!
21:15:53 [jordanp] jaggies> yes I'm still coming, however I may be up to a half hour late, hopefully not though
21:16:45 [glen] Skippy> I think the longer flybar was slightly faster, but the weight savings is a BIG factor
21:17:15 [glen] LH> CYA DANA!
21:17:30 [Skippy] glen> I'll have to try both
21:17:33 [mikado] You are lucky guys. You can go fly now. We have to go to sleep.
21:17:41 [jaggies] mikado> Have you considered making a micro helicopter like the Piccolo or Hornet? I'd love to see what you guys can do there.
21:17:57 [glen] Skippy> I like the heli better with the shorter flybar and 3-D paddles...
21:18:04 [mikado] Have a nice weekend! Bye!
21:18:06 [Hovertime] Mikado-Thank you for your time!
21:18:37 [jaggies] Ah, man. I'll have to save that question for next time